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Author Topic: Cast rifle loads with Titegroup?  (Read 1823 times)
hgonc2
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« on: May 07, 2011, 03:24:18 PM »

I've just gotten back into reloading after a 10 year break (I was GIVEN an RCBS reloading set up; maybe a mixed blessing! HA!), and am currently loading .45 ACP, .223, .30-30, 7.5X55 Swiss, & .30-06. I've had great success casting for the .45 (Lee #90350, 230gr RN tumble lube) and loading them with 4.5gr of Titegroup.

For plinking & target shooting with the .30's, I cast some Lee 150gr flat nose with gas checks & Darr lube, and would like to use Titegroup for them as well, mostly because TG isn't supposed to be position sensitive & I don't want to mess with poly fillers.

Has anyone used TG for rifle loads? Have any start/max. load data?

I also have IMR 4198 & IMR 4064, and have heard good things about 4198 with cast rifle bullets.

Thanks for any help!
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SKS50
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2011, 08:53:41 PM »

None of my cast bullet manuals or data I've come across have any listing or TG for the 30 Cals.  Hodgdon does list a TG load for the Hornady 55 gr. FMJ  in the .223. it runs about 1K fps.

Two powders I use most in my four different 30 Cal. rifle are Alliant 2400 and Red Dot neither a case capacity or position sensitive as long as you stick with suggested  load data.

A couple articles

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/TheLoad.html
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 04:56:27 PM by SKS50 » Logged
Hoss
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2011, 09:02:41 PM »

Yup, when one sees 'position insensitive', reduced loads are a natural enough thought.

Don't use it myself, and wouldn't because it's not a fluffy powder. But, IF I were to use it, then I would start with these charges:

30-06 - at 13.0 gr of Titgroup
7.5X55 - at 11.2 gr of Titegroup
30-30 - at 9.0 gr of Titegroup

Hopefully, someone else has actual data for you.
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Make no mistake, the only reason that they want to take your guns is so that they can do things to you that they couldn't if you keep  your guns.

For among other evils caused by being disarmed, it renders you contemptible; which is one of those disgraceful things which a free man must guard against.

What we plant in the soil of contemplation, we shall reap in the harvest of action.
technobabble
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« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 03:40:24 PM »

SKS scared me when he originally suggested "The Load" but I tried it out anyway.  I started The Load WAY low and crept up to the 13 grains it suggested.  I bought a chronograph just to get a better feel for what was going on.  
I am shooting it out of a 7.62x54r and I can tell you that even at 13 grains there are no signs of excess pressure on the primers or cases.  
I know that pressures != velocities due to barrel lengths and so on, but here's some stats.

Surplus 150gr moly-coated training rounds in FPS
2647
2606
2668
2590

Handload 150gr hornady spire point.  IMR4895 50 grains.  Recommended from Hodgdon website. (almost absolutely full case)
2966
2951
2946
2998

handload 150gr hornady spire point.  "The Load" 13 grains of Red Dot  (not even half full case, be careful of double charge)
1599
1607
1585
1591

As you can see The Load is still comin' out WAY under velocity (about half) when compared to the other standard loads.  
I only have 32 brass so my next round will have 4 of each in the following weights of Red Dot in grains.
14.0, 14.2, 14.4, 14.6, 14.8, 15.0, 15.2, 15.4.
Each series will be chronographed and inspected for signs of excess pressure in the cases and primers.  I may be able to take these down tomorrow, we'll see.  

« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 03:43:31 PM by technobabble » Logged
technobabble
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« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2011, 03:42:24 PM »

double post, sorry
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SKS50
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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2011, 06:26:19 PM »

tech rest assured I would never post any reloading data on the forum that I haven't already tried myself and have been shooting for a long time. 

My interest with using shotgun and pistol powders in rifle cartridges is to give handloaders more alternatives in reloading that are cheaper and  pleasant shooting compared to full house loads yet provide excellent accuracy at reasonable ranges as well and make good hunting loads for small and medium size game.

Thanks for posting the data on the J bullets with the Red Dot loads,that's about the same MV I'm getting with the 13 gr. Red Dot loads using 165 gr. RNFP gas check cast bullets.     
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technobabble
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« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 06:39:36 PM »

SKS, I appreciate it.  I'd have blown through a pound of IMR 4895 already and I'm not even dialed in yet. 
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hgonc2
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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2011, 03:55:36 PM »

Thanks Hoss, I'll consider those loads, & thanks for actually reading my post.

SKS & Tech; I need load info on .30 cal, 150gr cast, with TG,
NOT:
jacketed
red dot
2400
7.62X54
165 gr RNFP
IMR 4895
or '55 gr. FMJ  in the .223. it runs about 4K fps.'.  (BTW, it's 1,064fps. @ 4,000 CUP)

Not even close, & no cigar.
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technobabble
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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2011, 07:10:20 PM »

Thanks Hoss, I'll consider those loads, & thanks for actually reading my post.

SKS & Tech; I need load info on .30 cal, 150gr cast, with TG,
NOT:
jacketed
red dot
2400
7.62X54
165 gr RNFP
IMR 4895
or '55 gr. FMJ  in the .223. it runs about 4K fps.'.  (BTW, it's 1,064fps. @ 4,000 CUP)

Not even close, & no cigar.

We don't have the info you're looking for.  We were giving you our experience with loads that are both similar in burn rate, and with case volumes that are similar as well.  It should get you in the vicinity of where you need to be, reduce by 10% and get to shootin'
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hgonc2
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« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2011, 03:22:20 PM »

OK - some results, for what it's worth. I loaded .30-30, spread from 6.0 to 10.0gr of TG, pushing that Lee 150gr FN gas checked, with Rem 9 1/2 Mag primers (what i had on hand). Without a chronograph, I can say the 6.0 load recoiled just a touch more than a .22, and from 8.0 thru 10.0 grains, recoil increased pretty quick. No excessive pressure signs what-so-ever, at any loading.
I made sure to try several powder positions, from muzzle down, to muzzle up, then level & tapping the frame to level the powder, and noticed no difference in ignition or report. All groups hovered about 1" @ 25 yards with iron sights, but of course, the groups were low compared to start loads with jacketed bullets & typical powders (4064, 4198).

I won't hesitate to load the 6.0gr of TG, & omit the gas checks, for close range plinking or small game loads.

I also loaded some 7.5x55 Swiss for my K31, with 23.0 & 24.0gr of IMR 4198, and the same Lee 150gr FN gas checked. Both loads grouped about 1" at 50yds, and had about 1/2 the recoil of GP or Privi ammo. More testing to come on this.

Most notably, I see ZERO leading in both rifles, and, strangely, the bores seem to look better after firing cast. (?)

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Hoss
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« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2011, 05:07:03 PM »

OK - some results, for what it's worth. I loaded .30-30, spread from 6.0 to 10.0gr of TG, pushing that Lee 150gr FN gas checked, with Rem 9 1/2 Mag primers (what i had on hand). Without a chronograph, I can say the 6.0 load recoiled just a touch more than a .22, and from 8.0 thru 10.0 grains, recoil increased pretty quick. No excessive pressure signs what-so-ever, at any loading.
I made sure to try several powder positions, from muzzle down, to muzzle up, then level & tapping the frame to level the powder, and noticed no difference in ignition or report. All groups hovered about 1" @ 25 yards with iron sights, but of course, the groups were low compared to start loads with jacketed bullets & typical powders (4064, 4198).

I won't hesitate to load the 6.0gr of TG, & omit the gas checks, for close range plinking or small game loads.

I also loaded some 7.5x55 Swiss for my K31, with 23.0 & 24.0gr of IMR 4198, and the same Lee 150gr FN gas checked. Both loads grouped about 1" at 50yds, and had about 1/2 the recoil of GP or Privi ammo. More testing to come on this.

Most notably, I see ZERO leading in both rifles, and, strangely, the bores seem to look better after firing cast. (?)



Could be because fresh lead is shiny Smiley.

By all means post your results.  Always curious to see what folks are doing, and Titegroup is not a powder your hear much about vis a vis reduced loads.  Be cool if you if you had velocities.

I'm working on a few reduced loads as well atm.  More like in the 1800 to 2200 fps range 'though.  So I had decided to see what powder charge would load with how many grains and still be safe and therefore made up a little spreadsheet with all the pistol powders. 

That's why I was able to give you a powder charge, (above post)  I would've used to start off with.  Btw, my ad hoc spreadsheet says 8,.8gr to 11.7gr of Titegroup would be ok, and reasonably safe in 30-30.   Not touting that as reliable or anything to go by, it's just a rough guide for me.  My aim was to not have a load that's too slow, and therefore possibly stick a bullet in the barrel, and no load so fast that pressures would conceivably be too high.

 
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Make no mistake, the only reason that they want to take your guns is so that they can do things to you that they couldn't if you keep  your guns.

For among other evils caused by being disarmed, it renders you contemptible; which is one of those disgraceful things which a free man must guard against.

What we plant in the soil of contemplation, we shall reap in the harvest of action.
SKS50
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« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2011, 05:08:50 PM »

Quote
Most notably, I see ZERO leading in both rifles, and, strangely, the bores seem to look better after firing cast. (?)

With good bullet fit and gas checks leading want be an issue.  I'll have to give the TG 30-30 load a try I've been using 8.0 grs. of Red Dot with my Lee 170 gr. bullets and leaving the GC off.  Cast bullets and a good lube will leave you bore nice and shiny and pistol powders are very efficiently in rifle barrels and leave little to no residue.
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hgonc2
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« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2011, 06:14:14 PM »

Update #2:
Got some .30-30 loaded as previously mentioned (6.0gr TG), the only difference being no gas check & I crimped this time. At 25 yds, all rounds were grouping nicely, and you can definitely hear the bullet slap the backer board. After 30 rounds, again, zero leading.
This should be an interesting squirrel & rabbit season!  grin
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